Resource management is one of the toughest areas of portfolio planning to get right. Managing and modelling potentially thousands of interdependent moving parts was never an easy task. But, as we see the shape of the workforce changing and deal with post-pandemic recovery challenges, the landscape is becoming more – not less – complex.
PM Today’s Associate Editor, Amy Hatton, recently spoke to Lloyd Norman, Vice President, Strategic Solutions, Tempus Resource by ProSymmetry, about this topic. In this special podcast and webinar serios, Amy had the chance to delve into Lloyd’s 25 year-plus career and experience in the Resource Portfolio Management and PMO space. The podcast and webinar have been released prior to Lloyd speaking at two of the PM calendar’s biggest annual events, and you can register now to see him attend and speak in June, then again in September.
Register to hear Lloyd at House of PMO’s PMO Conference (June, London and Edinburgh)
Register to attend Project Challenge Expo (27 September 2022, free for delegates).
Stream the podcast and follow the transcript below to hear Amy and Lloyd discuss:
Transcript:
Amy: Okay, hi, everyone, and welcome to the latest edition of the PM Today podcast. As a lot of you know, I’m Amy Hatton. I’m the Associate Editor of PM Today. And today, my lovely guest is Lloyd Norman, who recently joined resource management specialists, ProSymmetry, as their new Vice President for Strategic Solutions. I should say that ProSymmetry are great friends of PM Today, actually, we’ve been working with them for a number of years. And since 2007, they’ve been solving resourcing challenges for organisations worldwide. It’s been fascinating to watch them on that journey. Lloyd, however, joined ProSymmetry in March 2022. And in fact, he’s going to be with us in the UK this year – twice – for two of the biggest events in the PM calendar. That’s House of PMO’s PMO conference in June, and Project Challenge Expo in September. And I’m really excited that Lloyd’s joining me in advance of those engagements all the way from Salt Lake City in Utah. And we’re going to be chatting about the latest challenges, trends, and pain points in resource management and how we can start to solve them. Throughout my career as a PM journalist, this really is one nut that we seem to be struggling to crack. So, it’s fantastic to have an expert to speak to about this pain point that I know affects project practitioners everywhere, regardless of industry, regardless of maturity or any of those kinds of things. So, Lloyd, fantastic to have you here today. Thanks so much for making the time. How are you doing?
Lloyd: I’m doing wonderful, Amy, it’s very nice to be with you. It’s very nice to be with ProSymmetry, a leader in the industry, and is certainly an industry I’m passionate about. And I very much look forward to meeting you and others in person in London.
Amy: Yes, and welcome to your role at ProSymmetry, Lloyd. I wonder if we could just start by just giving us a brief rundown of a little bit of your own professional background, where have you come from? And what has made you want to be in this incredibly complex resource management space that we’re in?
Lloyd: Well, what a wonderfully open ended question! So let me fill in some of those gaps. Thank you for that. I actually started my career, I graduated as an industrial engineer, and went to work for IBM out of college and immediately began to help people use technology to solve challenges. This whole theme of getting the most from your resources – whether it’s your funding, your technology, or especially your people, has really been part of my work life, ever since graduating from college. I did a lot of wonderful work with IBM, met a lot of clients there and have lifelong friendships. I transitioned into a role as a Managing Partner at a boutique custom systems integration and consulting firm. I did that for almost 20 years. Our clients were really global in nature, we did a lot of work for the United States Federal Government, which had me travelling to places like Knob Noster, Missouri, and putting in systems in Diego, Garcia. It was really quite interesting work. But again, always focused on: how can we apply technology, people and processes to both improve really value delivery, as well as work life problems? Roughly a decade ago, my wife and I transitioned out to sunny Salt Lake City, America. It’s a fantastic place to live. The work life balance here is fabulous as well. I actually took a role for the first time in the finance industry. And the finance industry had a wonderful opportunity available here. But once again, it was clear that regardless of what industry you’re in, people tend to have the same challenges. I will say that I had the opportunity to run the Resource Management Office at a large financial institution. And it just became more and more clear to me, the more I engaged with people, that those of us that are in the resource planning industry really ought to consider how lucky we are. Because there’s such an effort today to talk about making sure that your work is purposeful. I will say that there’s a real altruistic stream when it comes to resource planning – when you are able to help businesses make the most of their people in terms of value delivery, in whatever industry that is – whatever that looks like. The other side of that coin is: well, how are you treating your people in the process? Are they overworked? Are they burned out? And I would submit to you that that’s really our higher calling. If we, in fact, can help people be less stressed at work while still remaining at their current level of productivity or delivering even more, they won’t be taking that stress home with them. It won’t be adversely affecting their families. And again, my proposition here is (and I know this sounds a little pie in the sky, but I absolutely believe it), if we are positively affecting people, and positively affecting their families, then we are, in fact, positively affecting society and the broader world at large. And I believe that’s true of everybody that’s doing their best, in whatever capacity they may be working in, in terms of helping people to find good work life balance, while still delivering what they need to, for whatever organisation that they’re engaged with.
Amy: Okay, thanks, Lloyd. That’s a really interesting perspective, actually, because usually we talk about resource management, from the point of view of the portfolio, the enterprise, driving value…but actually, I couldn’t agree more with your perspective that there seems to be an increasing recognition now that driving motivation, work life balance, purposeful meaning behind work, is in fact part of the mix, when it comes to driving value for the organisation, as well as for the human beings who are within it. We’ll come back to that in a bit if that’s okay. But let me just bring you back to a stat that I actually got from your recent webinar, that I’ve just watched (a webinar about fuelling Scaled Agile Delivery. And just for the sake of our listeners, that’s available on ProSymmetry’s website. So if you go to https://www.prosymmetry.com/resources, you will find that and loads of other fabulous webinars and blogs and that kind of thing on there). But this stat that you cited is from the IPMA. And it says that 56% of projects fail to deliver the original goals and business intent. What surprised me about that stat is that that includes Agile projects. And for a long time, I think we’ve all thought that Agile was the next big thing. And it’s the panacea to all our problems. But it doesn’t seem to be doing the job. We don’t seem to be getting to the bottom of how to manage our resource pipeline properly. So, from your point of view, effectively looking across the enterprise and looking at it from a PMO perspective, what’s the problem here? What are the headlines when it comes to the challenges that we’re not managing to solve within that pipeline?
Lloyd: Well, if you’re talking about the Agile pipeline, specifically, there’s much to love about Agile. The group that really started Agile did so in Park City, which is not far from where I’m broadcasting now. It was a group of industry leaders that wanted to come in and determine: “how can we put a little bit of structure around better deliveries, specifically programming application delivery?” And they came up with the Agile Manifesto, and that was in the year 2001. And it was interesting, there was actually a twenty-year anniversary, this was mid pandemic, so I of course, had to dial in like the rest of the world and listen to several of them. They weren’t all there, but there was probably eight or 10 of them on this particular call. And there was a recurring theme in that discussion. and which went on for an hour, which was still: “what are some of the challenges about doing Agile at scale?” And interestingly, there are several frameworks now that ostensibly will help people deliver the benefits that teams have seen, which are very tangible, very real, very positive. Having persistent teams that are aligned with value streams, is just a wonderful way to do business. You know, bringing work to people instead of people to work, it’s a notion that is overdue, if you will. The challenge is doing that at scale. It’s clearly something that even this group of thought leaders is still learning about. If you look at the Scaled Agile Framework (and I think that’s a wonderful place to go) There’s over 20,000 organisations that are using the Scaled Agile Framework, close to a million people that have been trained in it. So, I think it’s taking the default leadership role, but they’re on version 5.1 now. Because look, it’s been a journey for them and continues to be. And if you look at some of the inhibitors to Agile at scale – and I consult with customers, again, globally – I can think of recent conversations I’ve had, where there’s a company that was standing up two release trains, if you will, two value streams with multiple teams on them. I also recently spoke with a customer that has eighty value streams, they bring 500 people together quarterly for Programme Interval Planning events, both of them had the same issues. This one firm, the larger one that I spoke about at Houston they’ve been swinging away at this for ten years. And both of them came back to this notion of: “It’s really difficult for us to figure out how to share our resources.” Nobody has unlimited money, not even the US Government has unlimited money! Which means that you’re going to have some shared skills where people like data engineers, cybersecurity specialists, you’re not going to hang one of those on every team. It’s just not going to happen. You know, there’s been a lot of discussion about how to coordinate that. And I think the Scaled Agile Framework has some wonderful vision out there in terms of planning horizons, moving well beyond the current PI Planning events, and looking out across those horizons, making sure that you are in fact, doing classical resource planning, months in advance of the current PI boundary. And so those kinds of things are where you need to make sure that you are being Agile, instead of doing Agile, and there is in fact, a difference.
Amy: Okay, and in the same webinar, you also talk about the value of a Lean Portfolio Management approach. And in that webinar, I kind of, I get the impression from you that Lean Portfolio Management in some ways is extending – moving beyond a pure Agile framework or a Scaled Agile Framework. I just wonder, for our listeners, if you could just explain a little bit more about Lean Portfolio Management, why you would (if, indeed, you would!) endorse it and how it kind of slots into the Resource Management landscape, if you like?
Lloyd: Of course, It’s a great question. And I’ll say that Lean Portfolio Management (LPM, for short) is really an extension of how you do Agile at scale. How can we take those things that have benefited teams, and move them up to the entire enterprise? And when you do that, of course, you introduce a lot more shared resources into that domain. And how do you manage that effectively? Everybody knows what Lean is, hopefully, on this call, you know, the concept of being as effective as you can, traditionally coming from a manufacturing environment, really, it applies to all lines of work. Portfolio Management probably is also something that is relatively well understood to this audience. But putting those together and blending those in a Scaled Agile Environment. Let me give you just a few pearls of wisdom, if I may, that life has taught me. In the first place, I have yet to find anyone – unicorns exist, and those sorts of things! But I literally have not talked to anyone that’s running Agile in its purest form. They will always provide some sort of a verbal disclaimer typically about “yes, we’re doing Agile, but we’re also doing Waterfall projects. We’re not coordinating well with our operational delivery. Some of our teams have people that are dedicated, some of them have people that are only allocated to the teams part time. There is a number of challenges when you actually go out and try to apply this to your particular business. And I would say, wonderful! The framework itself is that – it’s a framework. Everybody, regardless of where they are in their “Agile journey”, almost all of them are seeing some benefits from it. I was talking with a large firm from Cincinnati last week, and their initial cut at Agile (and they’re only maybe 5% of the way into this), they were already seeing enormous benefit. They were able to repurpose literally scores of people and move them out into other areas where they could be more productive, because they were getting such value from their teams. So, the concept of Lean Portfolio Management, it occurs at a level above the release trains. Your people that are delivering on Agile teams really should not be doing much in terms of planning at a portfolio level. They should be pulling items from their backlogs that are provided to them from the portfolio, the portfolio should be managed typically by a release train engineer or somebody with a similar role, regardless of their title. And then the level above that, LPM, is where you are actually blending: “what are we going to be doing? How are we going to execute against our corporate strategy?” So, the LPM level needs to be engaging corporate executives, looking at what their plans are. Plans are not strategy until you apply resources. And so, it’s that whole layer of: “if I’m in a hybrid environment, how am I going to bring work to people?” – i.e., what component of this work am I going to break down and have done via our Agile teams? But also, I’m likely to be dealing with: “how am I going to bring people to work?” You have shared services, finance, compliance, audit, regulatory legal – it’s a well-known challenge to pull those people into the recurring portfolio planning events that are so helpful to Agile delivery. And coordinating all of them to make sure that when you get to the PI boundary, these people actually have reserved capacity, in whatever role they may be functioning in, so that we can continue to deliver non-disrupted. At the LPM level, it’s all about value flow across the entire enterprise. And you should be able to (if you’re an effective Lean Portfolio Manager) be able to coordinate the interdependencies and the flow of work between Agile initiatives, Waterfall projects, and operational initiatives as well.
Amy: For the benefit of our listeners, we’re going to bring this down to a slightly more granular level. Now, when you speak at the PMO Conference, and when you speak at Project Challenge Expo this year, obviously, you’re going to have much more time to get in depth with the delegates. And so, I anticipate that at your presentations at those shows, you’re really going to be taking a deep dive into how to get control of that resource pipeline, how to dive into Lean Portfolio Management, that kind of thing. But just for the purposes of today’s interview, if you had to give a PMO – say at maturity level three, if you had to give them say, two or three general tips as to the nuts and bolts of: “okay, well, how do I actually get started doing good resource planning?” What would you offer them?
Lloyd: I’m a pragmatic guy. You have to think what I call “stratactically”. I would say, look, a couple of things. The people that are Agile, purists, if you will – I appreciate your passion! It’s wonderful. Like I say, incredible benefits coming of Agile. But lots of times they’ve started working in Agile at a team perspective. And it’s difficult for them to raise their vision a little bit and look out to the horizon. It’d be a bit like driving your car and keeping your eyes solely on the tachometer. Agile teams are wonderful at doing that. But if you’re going to do this at scale, you’ve got to raise it up and look and say: “Okay, where are we, as the enterprise, going? And I need to be sure that I am forecasting my teams, as well as the shared services roles that are coming at me, and I need to have that nine to twelve months out. Which to some people in the Agile realm is completely an anti-pattern, right? It’s like, “oh no, we’re, we’re self-forming self-managed cross functional teams. And I shouldn’t have to do that.” And to that I would respond: look, the two aren’t mutually exclusive. Just look at this Scaled Agile Framework. They go into this discussion very well, very reasonably. They are recognised thought leaders in this space. And so, what we are proposing is very consistent with that. And frankly, it’s consistent with common sense. Look, if you can’t go out that far, a member of the C-suite comes and asks you: “where are we with delivery?” Let me tell you the wrong answer. I actually watched this happen, I saw a person get dressed down fully by a CFO, when they responded that: “I can’t tell you what we’re going to do any further out than the current PI”. And you have to understand that companies are typically beholden to stockholders, and there needs to be a reasonable (and in my estimation, that’s nine to twelve months out) expectation of what delivery is going to be. So, from a practical perspective, please raise your sights, please make sure that if you are in fact responsible for teams, and those teams have limited capacity, then you should be forecasting what your engagements are going to be looking like nine to twelve months out with the understanding that nothing is ever committed until the PI planning boundary. But you have to start having the discussions with architecture, the shared services groups, much farther out than we typically have been – if for no other reason than to provide your executives, your business sponsors, with options. For example, what if you determine that, “hey, if I can add two more people to this team, we could drive another $3 million in sales in the next 18 months?” Well, that’s exactly the kind of discussion you should be elevating. This is about business, and about doing what is right for the business. Whether you’re delivering via Waterfall projects, or operational initiatives, or Agile initiatives, you need to be sizing your work. And you need to lay that work out on a common timeline. And so, in London, I’m going to be talking specifically about how do you do that? What does that look like? Because again, pragmatically, this all sounds great from the ivory tower perspective. But let’s let the rubber meet the road. And what you’ll find is, it’s really a matter of implementing best practices. We’ve already discussed how Scaled Agile talks about this as a best practice. But of course, project delivery has long said that this is a best practice. The challenge is and has been for a number of years – decades – that it takes work to do this. And lots of times, Project Managers, who are typically overwhelmed, don’t necessarily want to go to the effort to do that level of coordination. And how many times have we seen what the ramifications of that are? I tell people all the time: “look, if you’re doing this well, you shouldn’t be spending more than one or two hours a month doing this, at this level.” You of course need to be coordinating with your team on a daily and weekly basis. But I’m talking about “stratactical planning”, meaning looking at a planning horizon that’s a little bit longer, and making sure that you are feeding your pipeline, whether your pipeline flows into a project, or to an entire release train, or to a strategic portfolio. Because you’ll get a ten to one return on that time. It just takes one gnarly resource arbitration to chew up the better part of two weeks, right? And the project’s going to end up being impacted anyway. So, let’s do the work up front. It’s a far better use of your time to do that. So practically speaking, raise your sight, size your work. Those would be the two pragmatic things that I would say that are applicable across any delivery methodology. And then we’ll be talking about how you coordinate those across those methodologies to deliver the most value continuously through your pipeline, while taking care of your people as well.
Amy: And it’s also worth mentioning Lloyd, that, of course, you and I are going to be doing a webinar prior to the two shows you’re speaking at. We’re going to be recording that in due course and making it freely available on demand, are we not? So that you can show people visually?
Lloyd: Of course!
Amy: Yeah, yeah, really looking forward to that one. Let’s just bring the discussion out a bit again, because when you started this podcast by telling me about your life and your career, and what makes you so passionate about the whole area of Resource Portfolio Management, I was actually quite surprised at your reply, I expected you to jump straight into talking about business outputs and values and all of that. And of course, you have! And those things are very important. But what interested me was that you came at it very much from the perspective of work life balance, motivation at work. We know that the effects of the pandemic – devastating though it has been – it’s had some very interesting effects on how we look at our working lives and how we regard the workplace and its role in our lives. So, if we look at, for example, McKinsey, they estimate that 25% of workers may need to switch roles post-COVID. So that’s bringing another complexity into the area. We’ve also got things like Gen Z coming into the workplace. And I think it’s fair to say that we’re seeing things change significantly, because Gen Z are bringing in not only a very different technological perspective, an always-on perspective, but they’re also bringing in a new demand for motivation and purpose, in the workplace. We’ve got things going on like AI and the rise of automation (I recently did a podcast on that subject, actually, and it’s fascinating subject in itself). We’ve got the debate over remote working. So, it seems to me that the whole shape and landscape of employing people, or allocating work to people, is changing. And what we’re looking to get from our jobs is changing as well. I’m sure I read somewhere recently, in fact that for the first time ever, that more and more people are reporting that motivation at work is more important to them than salary. As we look at the future of work, and all of these complex factors, presumably that is making the landscape even more challenging when it comes to managing resources? And the reason I’m asking you this question is because I know that Tempus Resource has some really interesting features. around allocating resources – around skills, motivation, special interests. So, what’s your view? How do you think the future of work is going to look when it comes to managing resources? And what kind of challenges might emerge in the future because of that for the Lean Portfolio Manager or the Resource Planning PMO? Or whoever it might be?
Lloyd: It’s such a wonderful question – because really, you can’t decouple those. There was a fabulous article, and I would recommend it to anybody that’s listening, written by the Harvard Business Review. It came out in February this year is called “Beyond Burned Out”. And they looked at an enormous pool of resources globally, they had 1,500 respondents literally from around the world. And they spoke to: “what are the issues that have you concerned about your work life balance?” And it was fascinating, the top challenges were essentially “burnout – too much work, too much multitasking. I have no control over what’s coming at me. They’re continually changing my priorities. And I don’t feel valued.” When actually, the people that are responding this way, most of them were at least supervisory level or above. So, what an interesting perspective. You’ve got to help organizationally address this issue. I thought it was so interesting that they specifically called out the need for upstream intervention as opposed to downstream tactics. And that’s right where Tempus’s sweet spot is. When you go in and size your work, as we talked about, you should have built into your production guardrails, retention guardrails – meaning specifically, when I’m looking at modelling flow through my portfolio, can I make sure that my people are not planning to work more than forty or forty-five hours a week? There’s a burnout crescendo that escalates right at the fifty-hour threshold. And let’s stay below that. Now, let’s talk about concurrency, we should be able to look at our roadmap and say: what’s coming down the pipe? And show me any project (and you can break this out by sub-portfolios, if you will, or business strategy), look, I want to see the operational initiatives, the Agile initiatives, the Waterfall projects, that all are aligned with growing revenue in this particular area of my country, or my company, I should say. And so, they’re all related. Why can’t I look at that and say: “what are we doing to the people that are delivering there? What’s their concurrency? Is anyone working on more than three tasks concurrently? And are those same people planning to work, or do we have them planning to work more than forty/forty-five hours a week?” And you need to address that! In Salt Lake City, we have a 1% unemployment rate, it’s outrageous. Tech companies are leaving the more expensive and highly regulated environment, California and Sunday, other states that prefer that here to add to Utah. To which I say, wonderful! But the challenge is: last year in America, 47 million people willingly left their jobs. If you look at the Microsoft Work Index for 2022 – and this is a global number – they indicate that 40% of the global workforce will likely be transitioning to another role in the coming year. These numbers are staggering. It was catalysed by COVID. But I would submit to you, as is indicated by the Harvard Business Review article, these forces were flowing under the surface long before COVID came about. They just bubbled up and became very apparent because of COVID. So, organisations, globally, need to start finding this balance between results and retention. There are ways to do that. Technology can help you do that. What we offer is fabulous automation that lets you get to see that across sub-portfolios, portfolios, and actually lets you model and go in and adjust your work. So that whatever threshold, whatever guardrails you set in place, you can now make the determination data driven. Okay, in this case, I’m going to exceed that threshold – or, come heaven or high water, I’ve been given direction from our corporate HR department, that we will never do that. I can tell you that I attended the Resource Management Global Symposium in Dallas two weeks ago, and heard from several professional services consulting firms, – large, multibillion dollar firms – down to those firms that employ maybe 1,000 people. They’re somewhere in the $50 to $100 million revenue space. Regardless of who it was, all of them were saying the same thing: “Our number one engagement now is our employees. We must improve retention. And we can help do this. We can use automation to help us do this, we can use process to help us do this.” And I would submit to you that, look, people have said that – again, from the ivory tower – for the last decade. But now, they’re actually putting their money where their mouth is. And they are taking substantive revenue decrements so that they can, in fact, preserve these employer relationships. Part of it’s pragmatic. You’re going to pay a 20% premium every time you have turnover. But companies are realising: “look, we’re actually having a challenge meeting our strategic objectives, because our people are fleeing like rats from a sinking ship. What is the root cause of that?” Right? Over the coming years, people will want to go to work for companies that take care of their people. Portfolio optimization, and real retention, those are not mutually exclusive ideas. The best companies are already doing it now. And the challenge that I would throw out for listeners here is: those companies? They’re actively recruiting, and they have a wonderful, set of criteria that they can lay out to people and say: “look, why wouldn’t you come to work for us, because we will guarantee this.” Right? And it feeds to your whole culture when you do that. And if in fact, you are tracking available demand by role, and by skill, people can look at where they are. And if you’ve got your pipeline laid out, six/nine/twelve months in advance, you can see opportunities in the pipeline and see skills gaps. And why wouldn’t you? As a motivated employee? And we have companies that are doing this today – looking at opportunities in Tempus saying: “Okay, I’ve wanted that role. And they can immediately see what skills are needed for that role. And going and talking to their manager saying: “Look, I want a development plan”. And what you build is an internal talent supply chain, to deliver against what your known gaps are. But you can’t do that. If you don’t participate in what I consider to be best practices in resource planning,
Amy: It’s a broad question, and one that I think I could discuss with you all day, Lloyd, I find it absolutely fascinating. I’ve seen Tempus Resource in action, and some of its capabilities for getting into these more strategic human resource management areas are fascinating to me. And of course, as we’ve mentioned before, you’re going to be demonstrating that in more depth – firstly, on the webinar that we’re going to be recording and putting out shortly, that’s going to be available for our listeners on the PM Today website (pmtoday.co.uk). So do keep an eye on our website, as I’m sure that you do anyway, to get that webinar. But of course, you’re also at these two big shows giving the headline presentations at the PMO Conference and at Project Challenge Expo, I assume you’ll be on the exhibition floor as well, can people come along? Is there going to be an opportunity for them to get their hands on Tempus Resource and see what it can do?
Lloyd: Oh, of course, thank you for asking, yes. It’s absolutely fun to engage with people on the floor, please come to our booth. And again, what you’ll get is a high dose of pragmatic reality, we’ll show you how you actually do this, as opposed to talking about how to do it. And every culture is different. And we have people implementing Tempus in a lot of different ways. But please come out, kick the tyres. We regularly do ninety-day demos on site for people. The fascinating thing about Tempus is the interface – how easy it is to use, but how sensibly it helps you get both results and retention. So yes, come kick the tires, we’d love to visit with you.
Amy: And of course, we’ve got this huge pent-up demand for face-to-face networking. And I think everyone’s really excited about getting out and about, both in June and in September to these events. So, of course, if you do want to hear Lloyd speaking at either event, you will need to register to attend them. So let me just give our listeners those details. So, to register for the PMO Conference, which takes place in London and in Edinburgh, in June (so you need to get your skates on), you need to go to houseofpmo.com/PMOconference, or you can just Google “House of PMO, PMO conference”, it will come straight up. To register for Project Challenge Expo, which is, I believe, on the 27th of September in Westminster in London, you need to go to projchallenge.com. And it’s pretty obvious where you where you register on both websites. But I would encourage you to visit ProSymmetry’s website as well. There’s a fantastic bank of resources, all around resource management, written very much from the thought leadership perspective, they’re well worth exploring. And that is https://www.prosymmetry.com. So, I think that is probably all the information our listeners need to find out more. Lloyd, It’s been really fantastic having you here with us today. Thank you for taking the time. And I’m very much looking forward to presenting on a webinar with you soon. Really appreciate you being with us.
Lloyd: Amy, the pleasure’s been mine. I appreciate the opportunity and look forward to visiting with you in person in London.
Amy: Yeah, yeah, we’re looking forward to welcoming you. It’s going to be great see people out and about and doing business again. So, I think everyone, that’s all we’ve got time for today. Lloyd it’s been a real pleasure. Thank you, all of you, for joining us and listening to this podcast and we will be back very soon with the next PM Today podcast. Bye bye.
